Discussions‎ > ‎

Understanding the UBC HIM at UM

#3: Mark Knopper, Dave Katz, and Bill Norton get dragged into the discussion

posted Apr 4, 2012, 4:51 PM by Jeff Ogden   [ updated Apr 5, 2012, 11:37 AM ]

On Mar 6, 2012, at 10:55 AM, Jeff Ogden <jeff.ogden@umich.edu> wrote:

Hello,

How good is your memory for things from 20 to 25 years ago?

A few folks are working to resurrect and preserve MTS. Versions from 1988 and 1996 are running under the Hercules S/370 emulator. Last July the U-M gave us permission to make the source and object freely available. And late last December we made MTS D6.0 (1988) available and some folks with no prior knowledge of MTS got it working within less than 48 hours. So you can now run MTS from 1988 in an emulated S/370 on a Mac, under Windows, or under Unix/Lunix.

Now we are working to make a more recent version (1996) available and to make it more complete.  One of the things we want to improve is the networking support, since right now that is pretty much limited to tn3270 terminal support. One effort is to create an emulated HIM device in Hercules (it is C code, no need for PDP-11 assembler). Tom Valerio has something that sort of / mostly works (it does FTP and Finger from MTS to the "Internet").  Mike Alexander just started to work with Tom on it a bit.

The problem we have is that none of us knows or remembers how all of this stuff hangs together.  In a recent e-mail note Dennis O'Reilly (retired, but still working as a consultant at UBC) explained that what U-M ran was based on, but different from what was used at UBC and implicated some of you in working with him and Mark Fox on this as part of the NSFNET effort.

So I'm writing to see if you'd be willing to help us dust off our collective memories about how things worked (and to see if I've got good e-mail addresses for you)? Let me know.  If you are, I will send more information about what we have figured out or remembered so far.

There are two e-mail messages included below for background, one from Gavin and one from me.

And, if you'd like to be added to the mts-interest e-mail group, let me know (Al, you are already on it). The list doesn't get a lot of mail, one message every few months at the most.

   -Jeff



On Mar 21, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Mark Knopper wrote:

Hi Jeff,

Long time no see! Hope things are going well, other than this obsession with ancient operating systems.

I never worked with the UBC technology. But Dave, Al and I could easily whip up a PCP with a Merit 370 interface and have your telnet VT100 access up and running in no time. (*)

Mark

(*) Just kidding. No way.



On Mar 21, 2012, at 2:17 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

Dave was the guy I think.



On Mar 21, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Jeff Ogden wrote to Mark Knopper:

You can try to deny any knowledge, but Dennis remembers differently (see note below, emphasis added :-).

Thanks for the offer, but I don't know where on my Mac I'd plug in the channel cables. (*)

Yes, it has been a long time.  I retired (quit) from PTC/Arbortext about two years ago.  Life is pretty good.  I'm enjoying retirement.

As to my obsession with ancient operating systems ….  Aren't most operating systems in use today ancient? Unix certainly is since it goes back to the same time as MTS in the late 1960s and early 1970s.  I guess IOS may not be, but isn't IOS based on Mac OS X (Darwin) and thus on Unix to some degree?  Windows is pretty ancient. The Android OS is Linux-based, so that goes back to Unix.  What else do you have?

How is the baseball statistics app world doing?  Are you involved in other stuff?  Still have an office in downtown AA?

   -Jeff



On Mar 21, 2012, at 4:26 PM, Mark Knopper wrote:

Hm, well yes I definitely remember going to a few bars with Dave while he designed and coded the project. But I give all the credit to him.

I'm semi-retired. The Baseball app is the only one that I've submitted and that has actual users. It has a small but dedicated following. I have written a number of apps for my own use but have not deemed any to be ready for prime time. I'd like to do something about that, or maybe get some other ideas for apps to write.

You are definitely right about all OS's being ancient. OSX is based on Darwin which is an evolution of BSD Unix. It's rather amazing that none of the rest of them are surviving. Perhaps MTS will now rise from the ashes and come to its full glory. I still find myself wishing for features of the mighty MTS Editor.

Mark



On Apr 3, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Dave Katz wrote:

It took me a bit to remember what the hell a HIM was...  ;-)

I did indeed work with Mark and Dennis in 1987 or so to get the HIM running (almost called it a NIM, which was something else, somewhere in my past...)  I do clearly remember when it first started working, as it led to the following exchange between them:  "Beauty, eh?"  "Woh!"  They also stood slack-jawed at one of the giant plate glass windows in the CC watching an incoming tornado before being encouraged to head for the basement.

When I was working on it, we were getting it ready to provide an interface between NOTIS and UMnet, via the venerable Auscom channel interface (buggy piece of shit, as I recall).  I think I added a second plane of screen memory for the ALA character set (diacritics, Polish L, Icelandic Thorn, etc.)  I learned waay more about 3270s and bus/tag than a guy with a CDC background should ever have known.

DOS/VSE was running on the mainframe, and the HIM was pretending to be a 3725 or whatever the hell those things were called.  It acted as a protocol translator between an unexpurgated 3270 controller feed and the Merit INP, which had been extended a bit by Al to support PC-Tie as a 3270 emulator, and also to support remarkably good field-based terminal access on vt100s (the SCP was told what the field width was;  when the cursor left the field, it would turn off echo and forward the input.  I think we were justifiably proud of that hack.)

Then Bill Norton and I added 3270 printer support (he called the PC driver "Fester" for reasons known only to him;  the splash screen was quite creative) when it became known, very late in the process, that they planned on using this to print checkout slips or somesuch.  I think we pulled it off in about two weeks, as it was perilously close to the date it was supposed to be turned on for the public.

I think the other near-disaster was that DOS/VSE only supported a limited (far too limited) number of terminals;  this was discovered only at the very end of the process as well.  I think the solution was to run multiple copies of it under VM.

Tim Prettyman was our sane contact within the libraries;  our respective management forbade our talking directly, so of course we did so in order to move things along.  I recall Mike Stolcarczk (not sure about the spelling) playing hardball on our side;  it was all terribly silly, but there it goes, or went.

I remember thinking that PLUS-11 was a great leap forward from PDP-11 assembly (I liked named blocks a lot;  still haven't seen that in a language since).  Now I'm a Scala fan, so I guess I'm still trainable.

Having said all that, there was no MTS interface at the time, so I haven't any idea how the HIM figured into that world.  I moved on to NSFnet in late '87 and had my hands full attempting (without success) to surgically implant a sense of humor into Hans-Werner, so I stopped paying attention.  (I recall trying to explain the premise of "Hogan's Heroes" to him, without success, at a Diverse Holiday party at Mirv's house).

Did this become a replacement for the Ontel-based scheme for MTS?  I could imagine that the PC-Tie and VT100 support might have been interesting for MTS as well.

All this is terribly interesting, but unfortunately contributes nothing to the discussion.

For what it's worth, I'd be happy to stay in the loop.  The source email on this message would be the one to use.

It would be cool if somebody could type "duderstadt" at the "#" prompt.  I want to know if it still responds, "Do you mean 'dunderhead'?"  (And was that serendipitous or was somebody being clever?)

--Dave



On Apr 3, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Jeff Ogden wrote:

Thanks Dave. This was fun reading, even if it wasn't directly helpful on the MTS question.

Mike Stolarchuck was the follow.  His initials were MTS, but he was more of a Unix guy. Shifrah and I were (are?) god parents to his son, not that we ever did much.  I believe that Mike is out in California now.

Tim Prettyman is still around and still working in the U-M Library's Info Tech office.

It is good for a CDC guy to have his perspective broadened. It was an IBM 3274-1D control unit.

It was after my time working on MTS, but I think the HIM supplemented rather than replaced the Ontel and other "MCP" programs. As best we can figure out, what was in use with MTS at UM was a hybrid between UBC's NIM and other UBC boxes (NIM, Node, …) whose names I haven't yet gotten straight.  It enabled true TCP/IP connections in and out of MTS and very possibly other more traditional "3270" sorts of things as well. I'll forward Dennis's note in a few minutes.

On Apr 3, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Dave Katz wrote among other things:
It would be cool if somebody could type "duderstadt" at the "#" prompt.  I want to know if it still responds, "Do you mean 'dunderhead'?"  (And was that serendipitous or was somebody being clever?)

I don't think this was at the MTS command (#) prompt, but rather something from the MTS $Message system when you entered a name on the To or CC field of a message that wasn't recognized as valid (not in the *Userdirectory database). That program used the Soundex algorithum to give people a list of alternatives. And so what you saw would depend on the names that were and weren't in the database. And the Soundex scheme certainly produced some surprising results, so this story could be true. I'm sure that it was serendipitous rather than deliberate.  We can check with Jim Sterken, the author of $Message, to see if he remembers. And for now you are considered the authority on this topic, see:  http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/doyoumeandunderhead.

  -Jeff

Note: The "dunderhead" discussion continues in the 'Do you mean "dunderhead"' discussion item.



On Apr 3, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Dave Katz wrote:

On Apr 3, 2012, at 11:43 AM, Jeff Ogden wrote:
It is good for a CDC guy to have his perspective broadened.

Little did I realize that I would learn all I needed to know about concurrent programming at the age of 18.  Now I rail around saying things like "we'll never get locks/mutexes to work, or at least not more than once, and when it fails we're all screwed!"  Thus my embracing of Scala, which has immutable data structures as first-class citizens...

 It was an IBM 3274-1D control unit.

Ah, right.  The 3725 is what we were convincing the libraries *not* to buy...

It was after my time working on MTS, but I think the HIM supplemented rather than replaced the Ontel and other "MCP" programs. As best we can figure out, what was in use with MTS at UM was a hybrid between UBC's NIM and other UBC boxes (NIM, Node, …) whose names I haven't yet gotten straight.  It enabled true TCP/IP connections in and out of MTS and very possibly other more traditional "3270" sorts of things as well. I'll forward Dennis's note in a few minutes.

Ah...

It would be cool if somebody could type "duderstadt" at the "#" prompt.  I want to know if it still responds, "Do you mean 'dunderhead'?"  (And was that serendipitous or was somebody being clever?)

I don't think this was at the MTS command (#) prompt, but rather something from the MTS $Message system when you entered a name on the To or CC field of a message that wasn't recognized as valid (not in the *Userdirectory database). That program used the Soundex algorithum to give people a list of alternatives. And so what you saw would depend on the names that were and weren't in the database. And the Soundex scheme certainly produced some surprising results, so this story could be true. I'm sure that it was serendipitous rather than deliberate.  We can check with Jim Sterken, the author of $Message, to see if he remembers. And for now you are considered the authority on this topic, see:  http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/doyoumeandunderhead.

I think I mentioned this on the Risks of Computing list 10 or 15 years ago (in a discussion on the risks of spell checking) and referred to MTS as "late, lamented" or something along those lines.  Mike contacted me privately to take exception to this description...

Speaking of people with too much time on their hands, in 2006 I went to the 50th anniversary celebration of the MSU Computer Laboratory (I was an employee from years 20-29).  Along with seeing pieces of hardware that I helped purchase in a special exhibit in the MSU Museum (ouch), somebody that had been a student programmer around the time I left showed me SCOPE/HUSTLER running on a PC under Windows (running at roughly the same speed as the Cyber 750).  They had not only emulated the mainframe, but also the disk and tape controllers (allowing them to deadstart the O/S) and the 6684 mux that tied async lines to a channel.  I don't think they went so far as to emulate the Interdata/Perkin-Elmer 7/32 that we used for terminal front-ends later (a truly fine machine).  I did receive complete source listings (full-width line printer images, natch) of FREND (the 7/32 code), and also 1SJ, which swapped Hustler jobs to disk.  It was interesting looking at code I wrote over 30 years ago--the style is recognizable, though probably because Richard Moore (RIP, died last year) had very strict coding standards, and I brought a lot of that with me to Cisco and then Juniper.  At the time it was irritating and seemed overly pedantic;  in retrospect it taught me a great deal about how to write code that doesn't totally suck, and how to code defensively.  Most of the ex-Systems-group folks at the reunion at Richard's house that night had similar things to say...

But then Len Bosack took his paltry nine figures of Cisco money and started a company building DEC-10 clones in the 90s;  that's taking it to the next level.

The efforts to build working versions of the Babbage Difference Engine, on the other hand, are cool...

--Dave



On Apr 3, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Dave Katz wrote:


Ah, you found my old message.  15 years ago?  Yikes.  At least my story is still consistent, meaning that either it's true or my hallucinations are repeatable...  ;-)

--Dave



On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Bill Norton wrote:

Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. :-)

I published a book last recently called "The Internet Peering Playbook: Connecting to the Core of the Internet" that talks about the way the Internet interconnection works. I've been doing the book promotion stuff lately and this guy just out of college spoke with me and said something striking:

"We all just assume that everything under HTTP, what you call the "core" will just be there. We have massive teams of people coding up apps that service the complex structures in layer 7.

That blew my mind - that the Internet is to the point where everything below layer 7 is considered the "core" that has and will always be there.

Pretty soon my grandkids will come over and laugh at me for the modern equivalent of the flashing 12:00s on my Facebook profile.

Bill



On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Jeff Ogden wrote:

"the PC driver "Fester" for reasons known only to him; the splash screen was quite creative"?

So, Bill, do you remember the reasons?  Does anyone still have a copy of the splash screen?

  -Jeff



On Apr 4, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Bill Norton wrote:

I was a dumb young kid on my first single person professional programming project. I had fun programming a spash page of Uncle Fester from the Addams Family, and indeed, the project festered.

Dave Katz was being kind in his description - he bailed me out and as project leader and re-programmed the whole thing himself in a few weeks after I failed to make robust code over a bunch of months. But the splash screen looked good ;-)

The project truly festered.

Bill



On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:42 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

I did indeed work with Mark and Dennis in 1987 or so to get the HIM running (almost called it a NIM, which was something else, somewhere in my past...)  I do clearly remember when it first started working, as it led to the following exchange between them:  "Beauty, eh?"  "Woh!"  They also stood slack-jawed at one of the giant plate glass windows in the CC watching an incoming tornado before being encouraged to head for the basement.

I had forgotten completely about that tornado situation.  Thanks for the memory Dave.

Dennis (in Tokyo)

#2: Dennis O'Reilly responds

posted Apr 4, 2012, 4:27 PM by Jeff Ogden   [ updated Apr 4, 2012, 4:27 PM ]

On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:52 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

Hi Gav,

Long time no see.  I retired from UBC IT last June 30 after over 41 years of working there. Foolishly I am still working a few days a week as a private contractor. 

I don't think the HIM avenue will bear much fruit.  The HIM was software that ran on a PDP11/73 with an Auscom controller that connected the IBM mainframe channel. Bruce Cowan wrote the Auscom device driver in the PDP11.  I wrote the HIM application in the PDP11.  To the IBM mainframe the HIM looked exactly like 168 IBM 3278 model 1D display terminals. The code that ran in the HIM had two flavours.  One flavour translated IBM 3278 fields to/from UBC Virtual Terminal Protocol.  Another flavour translated IBM 3278 fields to/from Merit network protocol. On the MTS side the HIM networking used the 3270 DDR.

Was there a TCP DDR written for MTS?  I vaguely remember writing a TCP DDR. 

How does theTN3270 emulator connect to the 3270 DDR?

Dennis



On Mar 20, 2012, at 6:30 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:

Actually the HIM avenue seems to be bearing fruit nicely (and your timing is excellant).  Tom Valerio has written the start of a HIM emulator for Hercules that works well enough to FTP things to and from MTS.  So far it only works with MTS as a client and then not terribly reliably, but I think I know how to fix most of the problems.  I just last night got this working with my 1996 version of MTS on Hercules.

I don't doubt that HIMs and NIMs did all the things you describe, but HIMs also did IP based networking for MTS, at least at Michigan.  There is a HIM DSP that communicates with the HIM and TCP and UDP DSPs that use this to implement those protocols.  Then there is a Telnet DSP to implement that protocol.  I think most or all of this was done at UBC, but perhaps some of it was done at UM.

I don't think the HIM to MTS protocol for networking was the same as used by the Merit PCPs to talk to MTS for IP connections, but I could be wrong about that.  My recollection is that the PCP used an extension of the existing protocol it had used for years to talk to MTS while the HIM used something different.  My next step is to learn more about this aspect of things by reading the code for the DSPs mentioned above.

I think we can get networking to work pretty well again in MTS using the emulated HIM approach.  Of course this will gives us networking as it was in about 1995 when all serious work on MTS stopped and things have changed a bit since then.  MTS was just then learning about MX DNS records and still relied, at least to some extent, on a table of all known hosts to which it could send EMail.  If you want a list of all BITNET hosts as of 1996, I have it.

        Mike



On Mar 20, 2012, at 10:16 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

Hi Mike,

Yah, I think I wrote the TCP, UDP, and Telnet DSPs.

But not sure who wrote the HIM DSP.  Maybe that was done at UM.  Can't remember.

The issue with writing Internet apps on MTS or porting Internet apps to run on MTS was the lack of a usable asynch I/O interface at the MTS Volume 3 API level.

Dennis



On Mar 20, 2012, at 10:34 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

BTW I still have in my possession a complete assembly listing of UMMPS from the early 1970's in case that is of interest.



On Mar 20, 2012, at 7:25 PM, Jeff Ogden wrote:

Gavin is or was out of town for a few days. Not sure how quickly he'll be getting caught up on his e-mail.

The HIM may deliver more fruit that you might think.  We don't have to recreate the PDP-11 or Auscom controller.  We just need to create a Hercules emulated HIM device that does the right thing with the various channel commands and maps appropriately to the network services that are available in the native OS in which Hercules is running.  All the programming is in C.

Tom Valerio has been working on that and has made a good deal of progress and has finger and FTP pretty much working. I think Mike is getting involved now too.

I've got a couple of "big picture" questions.

Whenever anyone talks about the HIM I get confused.  If the HIM acts like a an IBM 3274 control unit, how did it support the TCP/IP protocols since those aren't 3270 data stream devices?

I know what a 3278 Display Model 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 are, but I don't know what a model 1D is.  There was a 3274-1D control unit. Is that what we are after rather than a 3278-1D? The 3274-1D was a locally channel attached (that is not SNA) control unit that supported up to 32 displays and/or printers connected via coax. The 3274-1B was similar to the 1D, but does not support the extended data stream. Both the 1B and 1D are similar to the older IBM 3272 that supported the older 3277 displays.

Did the Message Multiplexor fit into this picture somehow?  The 3274-1D CU used an address for each device, so I wouldn't think multiplexing would be required.  If the MM didn't play a role with the HIM, where did it fit in?

And just to complete the picture, what role did the NIM play?

 Did the path from the user look something like this?

     user<-->pc<-->NIM<-->HIM<-->IBMchannel<-->MTSTask
or
     user<-->pc<-->HIM<-->IBMchannel<-->MTSTask
or
     user<-->pc<-->NIM<-->IBMchannel<-->MM<-->MTSTask
or
     user<-->pc<-->Merit<-->HIM<-->IBMchannel<-->MTSTask
or
     something completely different?

Gavin said it was a memory test :-).

   -Jeff



On Mar 20, 2012, at 10:51 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

On 2012-03-20, at 4:25 PM, Jeff Ogden wrote:

Gavin is or was out of town for a few days. Not sure how quickly he'll be getting caught up on his e-mail.

The HIM may deliver more fruit that you might think.  We don't have to recreate the PDP-11 or Auscom controller.  We just need to create a Hercules emulated HIM device that does the right thing with the various channel commands and maps appropriately to the network services that are available in the native OS in which Hercules is running.  All the programming is in C.

Tom Valerio has been working on that and has made a good deal of progress and has finger and FTP pretty much working. I think Mike is getting involved now too.

I've got a couple of "big picture" questions.

Whenever anyone talks about the HIM I get confused.  If the HIM acts like a an IBM 3274 control unit, how did it support the TCP/IP protocols since those aren't 3270 data stream devices?

The HIM (or Host Interface Machine) was the PDP11/73 that emulated an IBM 3274 control unit and 160 (not 168) IBM 3278 display terminals. It received binary 3278 screens (field definitions) from the mainframe, and translated them into either UBC Virtual Terminal Protocol or MERIT protocol, and vice versa.

I know what a 3278 Display Model 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 are, but I don't know what a model 1D is.  There was a 3274-1D control unit. Is that what we are after rather than a 3278-1D? The 3274-1D was a locally channel attached (that is not SNA) control unit that supported up to 32 displays and/or printers connected via coax. The 3274-1B was similar to the 1D, but does not support the extended data stream. Both the 1B and 1D are similar to the older IBM 3272 that supported the older 3277 displays.

I guess my memory failed me.  This code was written 26 years ago.   I think you are right about the 3274-1D.  But the HIM definitely emulated 160 IBM 3278 display stations.

Did the Message Multiplexor fit into this picture somehow?  The 3274-1D CU used an address for each device, so I wouldn't think multiplexing would be required.  If the MM didn't play a role with the HIM, where did it fit in?
And just to complete the picture, what role did the NIM play?

For the HIM we emulated IBM 3274-1D channel attached control units. The MM was not involved.

In the UBC network design of those days there were HIMs, NIMs, and Nodes.

Nodes started out life as X.25 packet switching nodes.  These were implemented on PDP11/73s. There was a mesh of Nodes on the UBC network all interconnected by Ethernet. This was before TCP/IP. All nodes were interconnected in an X.25 cloud, and interconnected to the world-wide X.25 Internet.

Nodes provided interconnectivity between HIMs, NIMs, the world-wide X.25 Internet, and the dozen or so mini-computers (e.g, VAXes)  in various departments on the UBC campus that implemented X.25.

Some Nodes were directly connected to the MTS mainframe channels using Auscom controllers. On the MTS side the MM talked to the IBM channel via UMMPS. The MM multiplexed X.25 connections over the channel to the Node. On MTS you could open an X.25 socket, and this would create a path through the MM to the Node, or you could listen on an X.25 socket. You could do the same over a channel to channel adapter between two mainframes and two MMs.

This was the Internet before the Internet. In those days you could open X.25 connections or listen for X.25 connections from any major university in the world.

Later in 1987 when the TCP/IP Internet happened we modified the Nodes so they handled both X.25 and TCP/IP.  Then you could open or listen on sockets for both X.25 or TCP/IP. 

The HIMs were the boxes that emulated the IBM 3274 control units and attached IBM 3278 terminals.

The NIMs (or Network Interface Machines) were the PDP11s in the UBC network that ASCII terminals were connected to. Each NIM supported 160 ASCII terminals. The NIM was connected to a Node using Ethernet. The NIM would  talk UBC Virtual Terminal Protocol over the X.25 cloud to a HIM, or it would talk X.29 to any X.25 connected host in the world, or it would talk X.29 to MTS (using the X.29 DSR on MTS).  Later when TCP/IP happened we retrofitted the NIMs to talk telnet and TCP/IP. 



On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Jeff Ogden wrote:

Thanks, that helps a lot.  There is still a puzzle about how the HIM at UM supports things like FTP and Finger that aren't 3278 displays, but I'm sure we'll figure that out.

   -Jeff



On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:58 PM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

I would suspect the HIM DSP and the TCP DSP were involved, and that these would be talking via the MM. ??



On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:55 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:

I'm confused.  Which of these three devices (Nodes, HIMs, or NIMs) had channel interfaces?  Which of these had a subchannel per connection and which multiplexed multiple connections over a single (or very few) subchannels?

Perhaps we used the wrong name for things at UM and called a NIM a HIM, but the HIMs we had at UM seem a lot like what you describe as a NIM. each of them had multiple subchannels each of which could be connected to a TCP or UDP stream (a socket in the modern world).  They did not emulate or connect to 3278s (or if they did we ignored that fact).

Did we botch things up and get all the names wrong?  Or did the HIMs do TCP/IP?  It's certainly the case that what we called a HIM did TCP/IP. Was a HIM essentially the same hardware as a NIM with different software?  If not what was the essentially difference between the hardware of a NIM and a HIM?

            Mike



On Mar 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

Yes I think you are right that this is a nomenclature issue.

At UBC we had HIMs and Nodes attached to MTS, and they served different purposes. HIM was the IBM 3274 emulator front end.  Node was the direct connect X.25 router and TCP/IP router front end.

Sometime around 1987 when MERIT won the bid to operate the NSFNET Mark Fox and I came to UM and we implemented a HIM.  The purpose was to be able to connect the IBM mainframe supplied by IBM to monitor the NSFNET to MERIT. This HIM emulated the 3274-1D and spoke the MERIT protocols across the MERIT network to the MERIT PCPs and SCPs.  Soon thereafter HIMs were implemented to front end MTS.

We worked with Dave Katz and Mark Knopper.  Dave became very adept with the UBCNET software.  As it turns out the same O/S ran in the HIMs, Nodes, and NIMs.  The only difference was that different applications ran on each.  If you wanted you could have a single box that provided the functionality of the HIM and the Node in one box just by running both applications.  UBC never did this, but I believe Dave Katz did this at UM.  That is, he in included the Node application in the HIM boxes that front ended MTS. Thus, the UM HIMs were extended to provide direct TCP/IP router access, as well as IBM 3274-1D emulation.  Whereas at UBC we used two separate boxes, one called the HIM and one called the Node.

So at UM the term HIM meant a single box that functioned as both a TCP/IP router and an IBM 3274-1D emulator. And at UBC HIM meant a single box that functioned as an IBM 3274-1D emulator.

Back in the X.25 days X.25 routers were referred to as Nodes. 

Make sense?



On Mar 21, 2012, at 12:59 AM, Mike Alexander wrote:

Yes, this makes perfect sense.  In summary what I've been calling a HIM is really a combination of what UBC called a Node and what you called a HIM, but in fact we're ignoring the HIM part (3278 connectivity) and just using the Node part.  Did I get it right?  No wonder I was confused!

Is Dave Katz still around?  It might be good to try to include him in the effort to resurrect the UM style HIM.

       Mike



On Mar 21, 2012, at 11:01 AM, dennis.oreilly wrote:

Yes that is exactly right.



#1: Pleas for help

posted Apr 4, 2012, 4:08 PM by Jeff Ogden   [ updated Apr 4, 2012, 4:27 PM ]

From: Jeff Ogden
Subject: news from the MTS archiving / preservation / resurrection project
Date: January 26, 2012 9:50:24 PM EST
To: mts-interest@umich.edu

It has been 14 months since the last update to this group and there are a number of MTS related developments to report.

Progress

   . . .  [for the complete message, see: http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/e-mail-archive-1/526january2012newsfromthemtsarchivingpreservationresurrectionproject]

*  There is interest from a few people on the H390-MTS e-mail list in adding an emulated HIM control unit to Hercules.

Help wanted:

*  We'd very much like to get more information for the MTS Archive or the MTS Wikipedia articles. In particular one area that could be expanded are the descriptions of the networking activities at sites other than U-M (UBCNet, NuNet, …). If you know of any write-ups or if you are willing to write something yourself, place contact us at the e-mail address given below.

  . . .

*  And we are looking for people knowledgeable about the UBC HIM to help the volunteers that want to add HIM emulation to Hercules. You don't have to write any code unless you want to. We are really looking for people to answer questions and provide general guidance. Again, contact us at the e-mail address below or join the H390-MTS Yahoo group.

 . . .

*  Previous versions of these MTS updates are available at:  http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/e-mail-archive-1.

*  Send questions and comments to:  mts-comments@umich.edu


  -Jeff  Ogden (W163)
  -Mike Alexander (MTA) 
  -Gavin Eadie (CL14, W267, GAV)
  -Tom Valerio (W237)  



On 2012-01-25, at 10:04 PM, Gavin Eadie wrote:

Gentlemen .. First, Happy New Year and, for those I've not talked to for ages, Several Happy New Years !!

As I believe you all know, a few of us in Ann Arbor are working to make MTS live on, not only in an archival form for the ages, but also in a functioning form for the nostalgic and the hobbyists who have leapt upon it to play with.  We have been amazed by how far people with absolutely no prior knowledge of MTS have managed to get, starting with just distribution tapes.

MTS D6.0 is available now and our goal is to advance past that to, essentially, the MTS that was running at UM in 1996, which we will call D7.0.  I'm writing because we want to get this better connected to the Internet.  Hercules, the S/370 emulator within which MTS is running, has no emulated 'hardware' for the MTS IP stack to connect with.  We want to create enough of an emulated HIM as part of Hercules to allow the various UBC DSP's that worked with the hardware of yesteryear to work again.  Several people from the Hercules community have expressed interest in working on this.  We'd like to encourage and support them.

We can do this ourselves, with time and effort, but because none of us really has enough HIM experience or knowledge to move that forward easily, we suspect that getting help from some of you would speed things up.  We'd also welcome hints about where to find any existing written descriptions beyond the MTS source code (real documentation, assorted UM-based *Forum listings, was there a UBC-based HIM/Networking *Forum that might still exist in some form?, and Workshop Proceedings).

Interested?

I've sent this note to a fairly short list, and we know some of you don't have personal HIM experience; but you might be able to pass this along to others who would be intrigued.  All the very best, from us all .. Gavin
__________

For more information on the background to all this, you can start at:

   http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/

If you really want a walk down memory lane, you can fire up a TN3270 emulator and connect to port 3270 at the host named "xxxxx.org" .. that is an old Mac Cube (450MHz PPC G4, 768MB RAM) running the S/370 emulator Hercules, hosting Distribution 6 of MTS (1988).  You may have to send a "network break" to nudge it to the signon screen .. you can use id/pw of ccid/pw (or xx, xx, xx, etc).  I make no promise to keep this running but it's been chugging along unattended for about a week, and if I notice it's off the air, I'll restart it.  Yes, *Forum is available!!  Don't ask me to send you *PRINT* output or to mount tapes!

PS: There are only six 3270 devices enabled so don't all jump aboard at once !!

PPS: If you want to claim a ccid, just change the password, but please stay clear of xxxx-xxxx.

1-3 of 3